Dickson's Blogathon

Happy belated Valentines Day Andrea!

First of all, I dont think you know any more about religion than I do. Simply because you attend church? Simply because you pray? Simply because you claim you believe? Maybe you know more about what you believe in personally than I do, but you should or I would be you right? Do you know anything about the religion the ancient greeks believed in? How about Buddhism? Don't get all high and mighty on me simply because you have beliefs that happen to fall in line with ONE faction of ONE religion.

And let me clarify something - I never said that religion is responsible for all the strife in the world today. I simply said that sure while it does good sometimes, it does its fair share of bad too.

You asked me, "If people had a fear that if they do something bad in this life, and there would be repercussions, would they still do it?". The answer to that is obviously yes. Why do you think we have suicide bombers? Or even if they dont want the repercussions, well good thing about religion, you can switch to another one! The beliefs of your current religion not working out for you? Well there is only a gazillion others to choose from! Kind of like crossing the floor in politics. Or choosing the right lipstick for any given day.

Fundamentalists fighting in the name of religion. And only a few you say? Thats odd...last time I checked the middle east crisis included a war over a piece of land that IS CONSIDERED TO BE HOLY. Yep, two entire countries at war over something with religious roots, and yet you brush it aside as a few fundamentalists making you look bad. You're a smart girl, I am sure you can count the number of people in Israel and Palestine.

I think you missed my comment about evolution. My meaning was that if evolution stopped to think about what would happen next before proceeding, humans wouldn't be around as evolution would realize what a detriment to the environment humans would be. Since you took this as me suggesting that creationism is wrong, I will comment on that. How did the particles get there? Who cares! Is science exact? Absolutely not! So where does religion fit in - it makes people comfortable because they need to believe SOMETHING. Fine, go right ahead, make yourself feel better, but don't try to claim that its actually the truth.

And don't get me started on what the pope says. I bet that man can't squat to relieve himself without assistance. Why millions of people blindly take what he says as the truth is beyond me.

I am interested to hear what you consider the flaws of atheism and agnosticism! And just so you don't waste typing the most common responses - I am a perfectly happy individual, I don't feel a large void or emptiness, I do have values and morals of my own, and yes I do believe in living life to the fullest regardless of what comes next!

Mack....

Firstly, I know more about religion than you, not because I go to church or that I believe, but because I read alot of books (not just the Bible, and I have never read the Bible from cover to cover, just to let you know...); engage in "lively debates" with people at school; and most importantly, I have an open mind. Based on your retorts, you seem to think YOU'RE the high and mighty one. Maybe you should take CHRTC 350- Science and Religion.

Secondly, I DO know about the ancient Greek religion (polytheism ie Zeus and the rest of them), and Buddhism (I AM Chinese and that is the religion of my ancestors). In fact, I know quite alot about any major religion, the history behind it, etc. Just because I am Catholic, it doesn't make me blind and ignorant to other religions. Although I know of people like that.....

Sorry I misread that you said religion was responsible for all the strife in the world; and the point you make about it doing bad, sadly, is true. The fact is that many people use religion as a lifeline, or a carte blanche as a basis for their actions. For poor or downtrodden people, religion serves as a beacon of hope for them: although their life is bad now, their afterlife will be better because they have lived a pious life. Many religions take advantage of this by sending out missionaries to convert the "savages".

A great example of the misuse of the carte blanche is the suicide bombers. What you said about suicide bombers did not make sense to me, so I'll just tell you what I know. Most suicide bombers do what they do because they have been indoctrinated by the fundamentalist leaders. The leaders have told them that if they die for the sake of Islamic people, they will be martyrs and be sent straight into heaven. This is bolstered by an Islamic tradition: "he who gives his life for an Islamic cause will have his sins forgiven and a place reserved in paradise". Under occupation of Israel, the Palestinians suffer humiliation and hopelessness. This is the perfect moment for fundamentalist religious factions to step in and give them something to believe.

And you too are a smart boy, although your whole spiel in the Middle East negates that. It's true that Jerusalum and surrounding area is considered holy land. But did you stop to think by whom? Muslims, Jews AND Christians. How come all the Christians in the world aren't at arms over this then? It's only Israel and Palestine because it was two countries fighting over territory, and religion was brought into play later to alienate the enemy. Then religion was subverted by the fundamentalists.

Who switches from one religion to another to another just because the beliefs didn't fit with them? Religion is nothing like politics, or lipstick, as you blithely describe. Just because you don't agree with one thing, does that mean you have to switch? I don't agree with the Roman Catholic stance on ordination of women, contraceptives, or greater say for the laity, but I don't switch to a new, trendier religion to suit my lifestyle. Do you agree with everything your parents say? No? Why don't you disown yourself?

I still don't understand your comment on evolution. How can evolution "stop to think about what would happen next before proceeding" and realize that humans are a mistake. Evolution is a series of trial and error, and is a gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form. It can't look into the future and see that humans will be detrimental. If it could, it would not be called evolution, and species that weren't suitable would not have died out.

And I never claimed that either evolution, creationism, the combination of both, or any theory on the origin of life was the truth. Maybe it DOES make people more comfortable to believe in something, but is it better to not believe in anything?

"How did the particles get there? Who cares!" Well I'll tell you who cares: astrophysicists, astrobiologists, mathematicians, philosophers, anyone who wonders about the creation of the universe. People have made lives and careers out of this question. Dr. Stephen Hawkings, for example. Just because you don't care, doesn't mean that others don't.

Why do you have to attack the Pope like that? He has Parkinson's disease. Do you make fun of others who must live with assistance? Or do you just attack him because he is a public figure in charge of a certain branch of religion? An easy scapegoat, perhaps?

What did he say that millions (or in fact, all 1 BILLION) of Catholics took blindly as truth? Can you give me an example?

I wasn't going to type those responses, I didn't even think of them. Why do you think that I would even type those? I'm not one of those Bible thumpers who are like "UnGodly cretin! Believe and you shall be saved!" (maybe a little too extreme...). But I'm not like you either. Taking offense at others because they are taking offense in what you believe in. Just because you don't believe in religion, you don't have to attack it, and vice versa. I don't attack people who believe in other religions, atheist or agnostics.

Granted, logically, atheism and theism both are flawed. In the words of Cecil Reed:

"You can define a unicorn, and by definition a unicorn has at some point physical presence on the earth in order to exist. If a unicorn has never had physical presence on the earth as described, we know it does not exist. It is logical to be aunicornist.

"You can define a specific diety, such as Jesus, as Jesus is described to have had physical impact in the universe. If you can find that there is no evidence pointing to this being's physical impact on the earth as described (as defined) then you can logially prove the diety does not exist. You can logically be achristist.

"G-d is not definable. There is no steady definition or description of g-d. G-d, to exist, could be wholly immaterial - having never interacted physically with the universe. We don't have any definition for what g-d looks like, we wouldn't know if we saw one, and unless there was some change in the definition of g-d to be more constant or to be somthing which is at some point physical, we cannot logically say, in concept, g-d does not exist. For the same reasons, a pink elephant which cannot be seen, smelled, heard, touched, tasted, observed by machines, (sensed in any way) and which does not impact the physical world -in any way- cannot be proven or disproven. So that is why the logical choice would be agnostic (impossible to know.)"

So logically, you are right Mack. But this is STRICT logic. Are any humans logical?

Anyways, I'm tired of this discussion because I won't be able to convince you, and you won't be able to convince me. All I really want is for you to stop bashing religion.

Psychologically, I think your belligerence toward may be a slight inferiority complex, which makes you attack others that don't agree with you. But physically, no inferiority there.....wooooo

if only i spent this much time and effort doing homework......

Aiya.

No comment yet re: religion.

But as a clarification, my dear friends, Buddhism is an approach to life (a.k.a. philosophy) and was never meant to be a religion. Buddhist himself told his followers not to worship him. And FYI, interestingly enough, I learned this in CLIT and not in a religion course. Teehee.

And now...back to homework.

Well that was a long post, and you are right, there is no way we are going to convince each other otherwise. This doesn't mean the lively discussion has to stop!

So where should I begin? How about your first paragraph. What makes you think I dont read a lot of books? We obviously haven't always been in the same circle, so how do you know I haven't participated in lots of lively discussions? And can you read my thoughts? Can you read that I dont have an open mind? I dont think so. That reply makes you look arrogant, making assumptions you cannot prove. I dont think I need to establish any further that you dont know more about religion as a topic than I do.

And my apologies...since you know a lot about any major religion, I won't question your knowledge any further. Apparently you can tell me all about the numerous religions listed here http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/fields/2122.html, including the ones that are classified as "other".

I am wrong about the middle east? Is that so? Well obviously all the Christians in the world aren't in arms over this because one of two reasons: 1) they believe a slightly different form of Christianity (one of my most persistent complaints, so many factions) or 2) they dont care because as Dickson has said, its easier to believe in Religion when dont live in the area of conflict. And please, you cannot tell me the religious aspect is an afterthought of the war...do a quick Google search or look at any major news publication in the last decade to realize the truth. Here, this is one of the first hits in a recent search I made on Google: http://friedensbewegung.zionismus.info/dialog/religion.htm

OF course you don't see people switching religions every day, but why do you think all the different forms of each religion exist? Because someone didnt quite believe what the others did, got a small following, and started his or her own church. And of course I don't do everything my parents tell me, but how could I disown them? Your analogy is seriously flawed...while I could start another religion and claim to be a form of Catholic religion for instance, I cant exactly go and start new parents can I?

Obviously evolution cannot look into the future...I am gonna drop this little part of the discussion, as you have totally missed my clear meaning twice. Sometimes you take my comments literally, and sometimes you take them out of context. Make up your mind.

A good example is the comment about particles. Obviously those people care, but does the average person care? Does knowing that help the average joe make it through the day? I hardly think so.

I dont think I am attacking religion. More like pointing out some issues that dont make any sense. And perhaps you should read my comments about the Pope more as sensationalized writing than specifically attacking him. What does the Vatican say that sways society? Lets see...how about the decision over gay marriages? They can singlehandedly sway any vote in government by making "a recommendation". Thats not right, religion has no place in the laws of society. If people want to believe in a religion, fine, but it should not affect the laws which govern us ALL. For this reason I oppose any mention of God or religion in the constitution. I dont care if it was written for the time, documents such as this are ammended all the time.

Does it matter if its strict logic? Does it matter if humans are normally logical? Obviously they arent, otherwise we wouldnt have religion.

Its good to know that you are ALSO a psychologist now, thanks for solving my problems and declaring my inferiority complex. I hardly think this is the case...if I felt inferior, wouldnt I run to religion to make me feel like part of something bigger? To make me feel as though there was something better to live for? Once again, I think your reasoning is flawed here! Thanks for the physical comment though ;) (Even tho i sense sarcasm...)

And Annie, you are correct, that is how it started. However, it is clear that today, most people generally see Buddhism as a religion and not just a way of life. Its like anything, humans will morph it to fit. Even goverments (as seen in my FactBook link above) refer to it as a religion.

And now, I leave you religious folks with a couple of questions...not in the hopes that you will be able to answer them, but for some thought provokation:

Explain why prayer is OK, but spell casting is not, when both amount to the same thing: requesting that a superior supernatural force to intercede in a way that would be impossible according to the normally accepted laws of physics.

Explain why Christians (yes, that includes all branches of Christianity) have spread the lie that Jews put Jesus to death when, in actuality, it was the Romans who put Jesus to death. (For a good example of New Testament anti-semetism, see 1 Thessalonians 2:15).

Anyone interested in seeing The Passion of the Christ? Could be fun, you never know!

You know what Mack. I'm tired of arguing with you.....

Talk to you at school!

Thanks for the discussion, it was good!
Talk to you at school, keep looking HOT!

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